Youngster: Welcome to my Mommy’s podcast.
Hi there and welcome to the Wellness Mama podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and that is spherical two with my visitor, Diane Ducarme and one other completely fascinating episode. We had an entire episode concerning the mind-body connection and the relation of feelings to bodily well being, particularly via the lens of migraine victims, however a lot related info for all of us.
And Diane’s again immediately speaking concerning the feelings and the way they impression the vagus nerve. And I really feel just like the vagus nerve on the whole doesn’t get sufficient discuss time within the well being group. And she or he makes this extraordinarily sensible and actionable. And I really like her strategy. She is so spectacular in her personal proper. She’s the founder and CEO of Nectar Well being, which is an organization that provides years to the lives of these affected by migraine illness. However she additionally has an MBA from Harvard Enterprise Faculty. She’s a Fulbright Scholar and an Edmund Hillary Fellow. She has a grasp’s in science, engineering, know-how, and arithmetic from Europe and has studied conventional Chinese language drugs, in addition to talking seven languages. And I very a lot love her strategy and the way she unites issues which might be actually not talked about sufficient on the whole, and definitely not talked about sufficient in relation to one another. And I’m excited to continue to learn from Diane. So let’s be part of her now. Diane, welcome again.
Diane: Thanks. Thanks for having me once more, Katie.
Katie: And in the event you guys missed our first episode, I’ll hyperlink to it within the present notes and positively encourage a pay attention as a result of completely fascinating data on actually for migraine victims, however actually for all of us on the physiological significance of letting go and the way our feelings instantly impression our physique and the way that cycle backwards and forwards of resolving our feelings can change our biology and in reverse as properly. And after that first dialog, I’m much more excited to study from you on a subject and a phrase particularly that will get talked about lots within the well being world, however I don’t really feel like is totally understood or that we’re possibly doing the best issues to assist, which is the vagus nerve. And so constructing on our final dialog, I might love to leap into speaking about feelings and their impression on the vagus nerve, particularly. So to begin off broad, are you able to form of outline for one, what the vagus nerve is for anyone not acquainted and for 2, the way it pertains to our feelings?
Diane: Sure. So in your physique, you may have about 100 billion nerve cells. And all of those nerve cells are orchestrated by the vagus nerve. So the vagus nerve, think about it like a giant tree that’s going to plant its roots round your coronary heart, round your liver, round your abdomen, round your kidney, round your intestine, okay, round your giant and small gut. And it’s going to all collect in a trunk, which is form of alongside your backbone. And your neck, and it’s going to plug in like a Tesla in your mind. And so from a Western scientific viewpoint, from the second it attaches itself to the mind, we’ve type of misplaced the sign. And in order that nerve has been found in Western science in 1872 and has been researched much more within the final 10 years. In conventional Chinese language drugs, in Ayurveda has been a part of drugs for about 2,000 years. And so a number of the acupuncture and what you see on account of acupuncture is particularly enjoying alongside all of that vagus nerve.
Now, vagus comes from the Latin for vaga, which implies to wander, so to go round within the physique. And in order that unbelievable nerves, goes to do a ton of jobs of issues that you just don’t even take into consideration consciously. Okay. For instance, it’s going to assist to manage your coronary heart charge. Okay. It’s going to remind your coronary heart to beat, to have a beat. It’s going to decelerate your coronary heart’s throughout due to rest. It’s going to advertise a caloric regular pulse, when it must. It’s going to additionally steadiness your blood strain. It’s going to advertise your respiratory operate. Just like the pondering, you don’t have to suppose with the intention to breathe. You already know, you’re doing that subconsciously. Effectively, that is the vagus nerve once more. It’s going to boost your digestion. It’s going to play a major function within the digestive course of, stimulating, producing abdomen acid and digestive enzymes. It’s going to assist us scale back irritation. We discuss a lot about irritation. It’s so vital. Assist stress administration. And so many different issues. Nevertheless it’s going to help your emotional regulation. Okay, so it’s going to assist scale back anxiousness. And scale back depressive signs when it’s actually working optimally.
Katie: What are a few of the issues that get in the best way of the vagus nerve working optimally?
Diane: So imbalances. Imbalances in several elements of the physique will forestall the vagus nerve from working optimally. So we’ll begin with the feelings. The feelings in Western science are nonetheless solely scratching the floor. It is a very new idea for us to simply accept {that a} sure emotion may result in an imbalance. And even there, we like a one-to-one relationship the place issues are very black and white, however issues have much more nuance. For instance, in the event you search for the correlation between stress and most cancers, they’re going to say, oh, there’s no scientific proof that stress provokes most cancers. However in Western folklore, individuals can really feel it. They’re like, properly, it will probably’t be confused for too lengthy. It’s actually not wholesome.
And what we’re going to do for feelings, we’re going to go right down to conventional Chinese language drugs. Since you see the entire data that we now have on the vagus nerve, and God is aware of like within the West, we’re very form of male mindset, you realize, guerrilla crowds of the entire stuff we all know. And so all of those descriptions are from the neck under. There isn’t any large understanding of how do all of those cables and these wires plug within the mind, and the way can they transfer completely different elements? So within the West, after we analyze feelings, we would say, Let’s take a look at Katie’s confused. Let’s take a look at Katie doing math. Let’s take a look at Katie, you realize, doing a reminiscence recreation. Let’s take a look at Katie’s aspect. And we’re going to determine which a part of the mind are energetic, however we’re nonetheless utterly unable to hyperlink these elements of the mind and perceive what activated them within the first place from the nervous system perspective. We’re probably not there but. So subsequently, we’re going to simply accept that and settle for how refined additionally Western science is and unbelievable at proving these items. However I’m referring a bit to conventional Chinese language drugs and Ayurveda to grasp it.
Now, in Ayurveda and conventional Chinese language drugs, the second I’m going to have an emotion, I’m going to impression completely different elements of my vagus nerve. And so the emotion goes to go in my mind someplace and it’s going to impression the vagus nerve. So let’s think about I’ve a job the place I do a number of atypical pondering, okay? I feel on a regular basis or there’s a scenario. I’m at work or in my life the place I’m simply consistently, my mind is switched on. Okay, so it’s going to be right here. I’m pointing to my brow. My brow’s consistently energetic. Effectively, that’s going to be linked in my vagus nerve to my abdomen spleen. And so my abdomen spleen, my means to provide digestive enzymes and to interrupt down meals goes to be altered. And so my abdomen spleen system, which hyperlinks my brow to these digestive enzymes, is compromised as a result of I’m having that emotion of simply I’m consistently pondering. So I’m going to wrestle to completely sleep. I’ll have ADHD. But in addition I’m going to not digest rather well. I’d really feel bloated. In an excessive case, I’m going to have a leaky intestine. That is the place now we’re going from I obsessively take into consideration one thing to having a leaky intestine.
Katie: And it feels like this can be a far more well-known thought in Japanese drugs than Western drugs, however are there areas the place Western drugs is conscious of or scientifically acknowledges that connection?
Diane: It’s attention-grabbing. I begin with who did their investigation on the vagus nerve. It’s really our kids. I don’t know in the event you’ve ever observed anybody of your little one, and I do know you may have six, do that factor the place they eat an ice cream tremendous quick. They usually say, mind freeze. Have you ever ever seen this? It’s not their brow. It’s not their brow. So that they eat the ice cream tremendous quick. And I discover it actually odd as a result of they eat one thing actually chilly. And it lands on their abdomen. That it goes on their head and says, mind freeze, however then it dissipates as a result of the physique goes to clearly heat the ice cream actually quick. It will possibly’t enter the remainder of the physique. It’s so chilly. And they also have discovered that connection, which the normal Chinese language drugs medical doctors have discovered a very long time in the past.
I discover in Western science, it’s actually within the sleep science that one can find it essentially the most. So, for instance, we’ll discover within the sleep science that as we go into deep sleep, the basal temperature of the physique goes to lower and the liver system, the liver organ goes to detox concurrently the mind, okay? So we’re going to begin to see a relationship between the liver and the mind. Additionally, if there’s an excessive amount of toxicity within the liver, individuals are going to get up between 1 to three am, consistently. And so in that a part of the science, we see it. Now, if we return to the Western folklore, I feel anybody can agree that if in case you have a number of alcohol and also you intoxicate your liver, you’re going to begin to be very humorous in your mind. After which you may have a hangover. When you may have the hangover, you don’t slap your brow like a baby with a mind freeze. You go, oh my God, I’ve a hangover. Due to all techniques, the liver system is essentially the most linked to the mind and can also be the one which does the hormones. So sure, so you may see it in elements of Western science, so sleep science and elements of Western folklore.
Katie: That’s so attention-grabbing. And it brings the query, so if these items can negatively have an effect on our vagus nerve and result in these issues, how can we greatest help the vagus nerve? Or how can we optimize it in order that it’s functioning optimally, particularly after we have in mind that maybe this helps us to have a extra joyful emotional expertise as properly?
Diane: Yeah, utterly. So let’s think about, so ladies that suffer from migraines, for instance, most of them will cease having alcohol. As a result of they’re like, oh, my God, when I’ve alcohol, you realize, it’s not 100% of the time, however oh, my God, this provides me a set off. And the ache that I’m experiencing in my mind is so immense that it, you realize, removes the enjoyment. And so what they’re going to do goes to enter a little bit of an elimination eating regimen. They’re going to begin to say, okay, no extra wine, no extra cheese, no extra chocolate. They’re going to begin to steer clear of these meals. And so a number of what we do in Western science or Western world, we begin to steer clear of meals that will be actually robust, so actually robust and poisonous to digest for the physique. And so we try this.
Now, what we additionally do rather well is, you realize, a number of us are going to go gluten-free. And that’s when the abdomen, the gastric juices are not capable of do a very good job. One of many first issues that’s going to be arduous to digest goes to be gluten. So we take away them. So by eradicating them, we enable for extra focus, extra focus. Extra regular feelings. However what we are supposed to do, in my view, is we don’t take a look at deficiencies. And most ladies are extra poor than they’re in extra. And so despair or anxiousness or incapacity to focus can even come from, you realize, being depleted of vitamins, proper? And sure, we will take dietary supplements and we try this lots. However, it’s going to nonetheless take time earlier than we’re utterly capable of perceive how the physique absorbs these vitamins and the way they get motion on the physique. So by having a very nutritious diet and seasonal and, you realize, plant-based, et cetera, like we will actually assist the physique and help the physique features and subsequently, have a temper which is much more homogeneous.
Katie: And are there methods to bodily stimulate or profit the vagus nerve as properly? So as an illustration, I’ve heard anecdotally the advice that even issues like singing might help stimulate the vagus nerve as a result of the vibration of the vocal cords. And I observed for me, mockingly, after I began taking voice classes and singing, it appeared to assist course of feelings. But in addition that was across the time when my thyroid points began resolving. And I at all times puzzled if there was a connection as a result of I used to be stimulating my vagus nerve extra.
Diane: Utterly, utterly. So one factor to share with the mothers is sort of a good, you realize, simply singing to your kids earlier than they go to mattress. I’ve like a small, quick listing of songs that they actually love, and I sing to them. And that may be a full strategy to stimulate your vagus nerve and get the youngsters in mattress fortunately and peacefully as a result of it’s going to impression theirs as properly. And their stress degree goes to go down. So singing, positively. Lots of yoga posture, proper? If you consider the solar salutation is a large therapeutic massage to the vagus nerve. Then while you take a look at Pilates as properly, it’s going to assist. And so there have been scientific research that present that the mind structure of somebody who does a number of yoga goes to be barely completely different. And the suspicion is basically alongside that vagus nerve, various things are happening. Yeah. So all of these might be completed. A extremely good therapeutic massage as properly with somebody who actually is aware of what they do, a conventional Chinese language drugs therapeutic massage would additionally actually assist.
Katie: And based mostly on what you mentioned, it feels like a few of the Japanese modalities may additionally be simply naturally extra useful for the vagus nerve as properly. Issues like acupuncture or conventional Chinese language drugs, do these have an effect on the vagus nerve as properly?
Diane: Sure, utterly. And so taking issues finish to finish. So in the event you suppose acupuncture goes to take one level and alongside all of those nerves, it’s going to assist to revive the steadiness that the nerve simply performs the place it must carry out. And so it’s fairly attention-grabbing. In conventional Chinese language drugs, you’re going to see every time you may have ache, ache is a blockage. So in the event you’ve ever skilled a technique with a conventional Chinese language drugs practitioner, they’re going to go in direction of the ache. You’re like, whoa, this hurts. Like, cease doing that. Effectively, it hurts. Let’s simply go for it. And so that you’re like, why is that this particular person insisting? It’s hurting. They usually’re making an attempt to undo the issue at hand and making an attempt to actually comply with the place is your physique complaining? The place are there blockages alongside your vagus nerve? And, you realize, can we undo them?
Katie: And also you talked about deficiencies as properly. And I feel that is additionally in all probability quite common in fashionable society. And I’ve typically thought, you realize, we’ve heard that we’re getting overfed and undernourished or that we’re consuming loads of energy, however not sufficient micronutrients. And I feel if possibly we simply shifted our mindset to concentrate on quantity of vitamins per meals as a substitute of energy per meals, we would get just a little nearer to the objective there. However are there widespread deficiencies that you just see present up, particularly for ladies and particularly associated to the issues we’re speaking about?
Diane: Completely. It is a grand query. Thanks, Katie. What I do observe is a number of ladies can lack what is named in conventional Chinese language drugs, blood quantity. So they may both donate their blood or they’ve a copper IUD for a few years. They bleed lots. Or they’ve simply a number of blood loss, or they don’t make the blood that they lose quick sufficient. So in her fertility years, a girl goes to lose, the common girl goes to lose 23 to twenty-eight liters of menstruation. So you’re taking the man subsequent to her, it’s the nothingness occurring for him. For her, she’s going to must re-reproduce 23 to twenty-eight liters of menstruation. That’s large. And that’s even the common girl. The lady who bleeds extra may lose double that.
And so what I see is a number of ladies simply missing blood. And let’s think about that for a minute. So we will have two kinds of ladies, one who has a genetic predisposition for migraines, and he or she’s going to have her mind complain. Her mind is like, mayday, mayday, we don’t have sufficient oxygen, we don’t have sufficient blood. Are you able to ship us extra? You are taking a triptan, it’s going to contract your blood vessel, it’s going to pressure the blood into your mind, and also you may really feel form of okay. In the event you don’t have migraines, you’ll really feel extraordinarily weak. You’ll really feel you may have like a very dry pores and skin you could put, you realize, oil and butter and it’s at all times dry. You’ll really feel you may have a number of sugar cravings, sugar cravings earlier than your menstruation, sugar cravings while you’re confused. Sugar cravings while you’re drained. And you may also lose your hair.
And all of those are indicators that the physique is simply making an attempt to optimize the place can we put the blood as a result of we don’t have sufficient. You’re going to be both capable of suppose or to digest or to train, or to you realize, like, you realize, digest. So your physique goes to be just a little bit like a pc that doesn’t have sufficient web. It’s going to begin to shut quite a lot of tabs. It’s going to maintain one open loaded. After which as soon as it’s completed, shut it, open a second one. And so that is your physique now.
Now, in the event you eat sugar, the candy taste goes to ship the blood to your limbs, okay? And so for a second, you’re going to have an impression of vitality. So that you’re capable of get the laundry completed and the lunchboxes and, you realize, clear up the home. You could have that second of vitality as a result of the blood is concentrated in your limbs. You determined to reprioritize in your physique. However afterwards, you crash, and all of that blood goes again into the liver for digestive objective. And you are feeling actually drained once more. So now we now have once more an extra of junk meals that we ate, and we now have nonetheless that deficiency of blood quantity, that’s going to have a large impression on the vagus nerve and can provide signs to ladies which might be utterly gaslighted and unseen in Western science. I feel in Western science, we would say {that a} girl has anemia, it’s type of a proxy for it, nevertheless it’s not, you realize, you take a look at a pound of iron, it has little in widespread with, you realize, like a liter of blood, like you may’t make one from the opposite in a single day, you want different materials to manufacture that blood. Does that make sense?
Katie: That does make sense. And I might guess many individuals listening and myself up to now included have had form of that medical gaslighting and been instructed that issues had been “regular on labs” or that nothing was unsuitable when your physique’s telling you one thing utterly completely different and type of having to develop into our personal well being detective to determine what really was happening and what our physique really was asking for separate of our lab outcomes.
Diane: Yeah, utterly, utterly. And so what’s going to occur is that the lady’s going to have points and he or she may take drugs. And the extra she’s going to take medicine, the extra she’s going to intoxicate her liver, the extra her emotion will probably be anger feelings. And the extra, the much less the liver system goes to have sufficient room with the intention to produce the blood that it’s in command of producing. Does that make sense? And so she’s going to be an increasing number of drained. She’s going to eat an increasing number of sugar. She may have to medicate extra. And now she has, you realize, anger emotions the place she feels actually, actually horrible. And she or he additionally feels nonetheless torpid. Additionally, her temper hormones, which are also produced by the liver system in conventional Chinese language drugs, are going to be in every single place. And so she’s going to begin to have a very little impression of herself, you realize, diminished self-confidence. And when her youngsters develop into youngsters, she’s feeling actually, actually in every single place.
Katie: That is sensible. And again to the emotional aspect as properly. And to tie all this in, I might like to type of get an thought from you of what would optimum, like our optimum strategy to exist to guard our vagus nerve operate and to stimulate it optimally and to take care of our feelings, our adverse feelings to have the higher vagus nerve operate and, and even every day habits. What would that appear like if we had been going to form of stay in an optimum method for supporting vagus nerve operate?
Diane: Okay, I really like your query. So that you’d get up. And I do know that sounds actually unrealistic, however you may do a couple of solar salutations, simply waking up, stretching your backbone along with your arms left and proper. After which getting into a downward canine, after which in a cobra place. And simply try this thrice. And also you may really feel actually stiff, nevertheless it’s okay. Simply letting that vagus nerve have the opportunity. You might need a routine that includes a little bit of yoga or Pilates. After which you’ll eat meals which might be in season, which might be actually, actually diversified, like completely different colours. However additionally, you will have optimum gastric juices that means you’ve discovered to grasp have actually robust gastric juices and also you’re capable of fragment the meals to really entry it. We are saying that, we’re what we eat it’s really we’re what we eat, comma and soak up. After which we’ll have feelings that make us human. Typically we’ll really feel a bit indignant. Typically we’ll really feel a bit unhappy. Typically we’ll really feel a bit joyful. However we’re by no means going to have that, we’re by no means going to let ourselves keep in that emotion for a chronic time period. Yeah, and so we’re capable of simply cruise alongside.
There’s this unbelievable metaphor that I’ve heard not too long ago, which is named Be Water. And so it’s the concept that water could be very highly effective. If it goes in a cup, it’s a cup. If it goes in a bowl, it’s a bowl. And when the water goes as a river and it meets an impediment, it’s not going to go and make a boiling or simply go upwards or go loopy. It’s going to avoid it. And if there’s a gap, it’s going to fill the outlet all the best way it must fill it after which cross over it. And if there’s a small mountain or a big mountain, stopping it to achieve the ocean, it’s going to go round it. And so it’s the concept of life might be actually, actually robust. And you may really feel in these moments of the impediment pondering, why me? Why once more? We are able to simply be like water and go on with it and simply, you realize, circulate. And I feel that’s a, typically while you’re in these conditions, simply pondering that’s be water, it simply actually brings your senses to a degree of calm and brings your vagus nerve again to being grounded and to determine, subsequently, to liberate the vitality in your mind to determine what to do subsequent.
Katie: Oh, that’s such a great metaphor. And I do know we talked in our first episode about I really like that you just mentioned feelings in themselves are optimistic. It’s that after we get caught in any of them for too lengthy, that it’s a adverse expertise. Is that additionally true for what we’d historically name optimistic feelings? In different phrases, is it by some means dangerous to get caught in pleasure or to get caught in gratitude or happiness?
Diane: Completely. Being caught in pleasure in conventional Chinese language drugs might be very a lot related to a coronary heart assault. And so being caught in pleasure could be very harmful. Pleasure is a part of the center system. And you must have some degree of pleasure, however not a relentless degree of pleasure. Completely. Yeah, in the event you additionally, you realize, let’s think about you may have hazard coming at you. There’s actual issues in life, proper? And also you’re very affected person or very nonetheless. You’ll be eaten, proper? Take the metaphor of, you realize, being within the jungle or take the metaphor of getting your youngsters being threatened by all types of social media issues. In the event you’re very nonetheless and also you don’t take motion, you’re very considering and optimistic, nonetheless your little one’s going to get actually harm.
So there’s actually a necessity for intervention, a necessity for getting indignant on the scenario, a should be barely confused or barely anxious. And that’s what’s going to get you to take the proper plan of action. If issues caught once more, like we talked within the final podcast, issues caught within the emotion goes to be very adverse and it’s going to plunge the vagus nerve into a large degree of imbalance, okay? So, let’s think about if we evaluate it again to the tree, or you may evaluate the vagus nerve to an orchestra, proper? And if the controller of the orchestra solely focuses on the drum, that’s all you hear, and the music doesn’t play properly. And in order that’s what not permitting to remain caught in that emotion at is. And so, yeah, that relationship is basically vital.
Katie: Effectively, I feel even that acknowledgment of feelings not being dangerous themselves after which that they may, they’re universally optimistic additionally might help keep away from that lure of feeling responsible if we now have a adverse emotion or that like worry, guilt, disgrace cycle associated to feelings that we’re having and likewise helps us view them as extra transient in realizing it’s not the emotion that’s dangerous, it’s being caught in it. So we’re already in a mindset of feelings being transient and having the ability to transfer via us. However I additionally know from having completed a few of this work in my very own life that even being conscious of it, typically it’s just a little arduous to study to rewrite our tales internally or to ask ourselves higher questions or to offer ourselves higher psychological statements. Do you may have any ideas for individuals on studying the internal work of the feelings?
Diane: Are you able to deep dive in your query a bit extra?
Katie: Yeah. So as an illustration, I turned conscious of how I might have feelings associated to after I was having thyroid points and I might really feel very negatively about that. Or I might be asking what I might view as adverse questions like, why is that this so arduous or why can’t I get higher or why is it so arduous to drop extra pounds? And I slowly discovered to form of rewrite these tales in my head to say in a extra optimistic sense, like, how can I get higher? How can I make it simple and enjoyable to heal or regardless of the query could also be? However I do know it wasn’t an in a single day course of both, that I used to be no less than a gradual learner in studying consciously shift my emotional states. So do you may have any ideas for people who find themselves intending to start to study to rewrite that course of and have a more healthy relationship with their feelings?
Diane: Yeah, I feel typically simply fixing your self on one thing else. It’s actually arduous if I inform you, consider a banana and don’t consider a banana. In each circumstances I’ve mentioned the phrase banana. And so it’s, you realize, instantly that yellow factor pops up in your mind. But when I say, consider a banana, as a substitute of claiming, don’t consider a banana, I’m going cherries, cherries, cherries. You already know, prefer it simply sounds quite simple, nevertheless it simply rewires what you concentrate on. I feel lots of people are speaking about, you realize, manifesting within the universe. And I feel manifesting one thing else actually helps to transition in that emotion quicker.
One other one I discover is, you realize, how you are able to do, you realize, gratitudes on the finish of the day, and also you’re presupposed to possibly have a e-book and write them down, like realistically as a mother, you don’t have your gratitude journal essentially subsequent to your mattress in the event you do, wonderful. However most certainly, no less than on holidays, you gained’t have them. One trick is to take a lovely second and put it on an organ. So you may see, I had that great stroll with my son on the seaside, and we had this, you realize, profound dialog I used to be simply not anticipating. And I’m going to place that unbelievable reminiscence on my thyroid. And only a second to affiliate possibly that organ with one other sensation and one other reminiscence and form of rewire it like that.
Katie: I really like that tip. That’s an important thought. And I’m going to play with that in visualization and see how that goes. I really like every part we’ve gotten to speak about immediately. And I do know that you’ve got a lot extra past what we’ve been capable of cowl in these podcast episodes. The place can individuals discover you on-line and continue to learn from you and work with you instantly in the event that they’re experiencing migraines or actually something that they’re engaged on resolving?
Diane: Sure, so migraine, mynectarhealth.com is the web site. Or @mynectarhealth is the deal with. We even have a podcast that was impressed by the work referred to as Migraine Heroes. And so you may take the check on-line. And from the check, you may actually put all of those signs that you’ve got and these illness you may have in your life that aren’t making sense. And that’s in form of a 97 questionnaire, which is kind of unbelievable. After which we debrief on, okay, explaining to you and understanding, okay, what are these imbalances and what do they imply? And deal with them or to revive that steadiness so that every one of those signs that seem from all of those feelings and details of life can dissipate.
Katie: I find it irresistible. I’ll be certain all of that’s linked within the present notes as a result of you may have been a voice of rationalization to one thing that I’ve noticed in my very own life and that I feel so many individuals can profit from and, in fact, have already got via your work. And I’m so grateful for the work that you just do and particularly for all that you just’ve shared with us immediately. So thanks for being right here.
Diane: Thanks a lot for having me, Katie.
Katie: And thanks, as at all times, for sharing your most dear sources, your time, your vitality, and your consideration with us immediately. We’re each so grateful that you just did. And I hope that you’ll be part of me once more on the subsequent episode of The Wellness Mama Podcast.
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