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Hey, and welcome to the Wellness Mama Podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com. And this episode goes extra into the world of enterprise, content material creation, and a few of these matters that you simply guys stated you had been curious about listening to extra about. And I’m right here with a pal of mine, Nathan Barry, who’s the founding father of ConvertKit. He’s an investor, an creator. He has a podcast referred to as The Billion Greenback Content material Creator and much more. And I at all times discover my conversations with him so fascinating. And on this brief episode, we discuss concerning the idea of one thing referred to as flywheels and the way these could be useful in enterprise, in your private life, and what that idea means. And he supplies some actually stunning examples of this, in addition to steps for you probably have any form of enterprise, or particularly if you wish to develop into a enterprise proprietor, content material creator, easy methods to use this metaphor and this concept to simplify that course of and to have a much bigger affect over time. So let’s be part of and study from Nathan Barry. Nathan, welcome again.
Nathan: Thanks for having me on.
Katie: Properly, I’m actually excited to speak with you right now. We had a terrific dialog in our first interview years in the past, which I’ll hyperlink to within the present notes. However the viewers has been wanting to listen to extra about enterprise and finance and wealth. And that is an space I’m actually excited to dive deep in with you right now. And to start out off, I’d love to grasp, and for anybody who’s not acquainted, outline the concept of one thing you discuss an honest quantity, which is flywheels. So for anyone who hasn’t heard that time period, are you able to clarify what it’s?
Nathan: Yeah, I believe it’s a type of phrases that even when you’ve heard it, you most likely don’t truly know what it’s. There’s quite a lot of instances I’ve talked to folks they usually’re like, I’ve used that phrase and I don’t suppose I do know what it’s. So I first discovered about flywheels again in, I used to be in Lesotho, which is a rustic inside South Africa, in 2008. And, we had been drilling a effectively at an orphanage there and what we discovered is that electrical energy was not tremendous frequent. And so with a purpose to pump water from this effectively, we wanted a technique to do it that didn’t require a variety of effort and didn’t require electrical energy. And so that you’d usually consider like a hand pump, like I grew up going tenting quite a bit and also you consider an extended deal with that stands proud and also you’re pumping up and down with a purpose to get water. And which may work for tenting or you probably have it in your farm or one thing like that. However that’s not what you need like 100 children at an orphanage to depend on for his or her supply of water.
And so what we put in as a substitute was truly a flywheel. And that’s this massive steel wheel that sits up on prime of the pump. And as a substitute of this like linear up and down movement of a standard, you recognize, pump with a deal with, it has a round movement. And that is actually essential as a result of principally what occurs is the wheel is admittedly onerous to get going at first. However then as you actually lean in and switch it, it begins to construct momentum and it will get simpler and simpler with every rotation. And it truly produces extra with every rotation. And so once we use this on the, on this pump on the orphanage, at first it took two of us, each my pal Luke and I needed to like actually lean into it and begin pumping and get it going. After which because it constructed momentum, he was in a position to step away and I might do it on my own. After which I might do it with one hand after which I can get it going quicker and quicker from there. And we simply received this regular stream of water.
And what’s actually cool about it’s that it’s a technique of disconnecting effort and affect. It’s a technique of getting leverage. And so that is a type of issues that, you recognize, you’re like, wait, we’re speaking about on-line enterprise, what does any of this must do with truly operating a enterprise? And I believe the flywheel is an attention-grabbing metaphor as a result of similar to it really works in actual life physics, you may truly get it to work in enterprise as effectively, you recognize, or any of your processes. And in order that’s one thing that I’ve been serving to a variety of like extra intermediate to superior creators with is how do they construct, you recognize, flywheels of their enterprise to allow them to keep constant and get outcomes for an extended time period and never have this like, oh, if I needed to double the outcomes of my enterprise, I’d must double the trouble as a result of which may be true in some instances, however with flywheels, it’s not the case in any respect.
Katie: Yeah, I believe that is such an interesting idea. And admittedly, one I discovered form of later within the sport when it got here to enterprise. And I’ve shared earlier than how I had this tendency to not simply handle the whole lot, however wish to do the whole lot myself. And I needed to untangle that. And I do know a variety of entrepreneurs undergo that part. However I believe the flywheel idea was actually useful for me. And I believe you clarify it in a greater approach than I’ve heard nearly anybody else clarify it. And particularly if you discuss disconnecting the trouble from the affect, I like that you simply use the phrase affect. And never simply outcomes or ROI. As a result of for Wellness Mama, I’ve at all times been targeted on the affect and serving to mothers. And I very a lot consider that earnings follows final result. And that if you assist folks, you obtain higher outcomes. Might you share some examples of flywheels in enterprise for folks to have the ability to form of perceive this idea?
Nathan: Yeah, let me give a really particular instance as a result of I believe, what I discovered is that when folks discuss flywheels in enterprise, they discuss them on the highest stage, proper? Jim Collins in his guide, Good to Nice, talks about how all of those nice firms have a flywheel. And it’s one thing like Amazon’s flywheel the place, you recognize, they actually push to, they actually have low costs in order that they will have, or let’s see, let me reverse that. They attempt to run probably the most operationally environment friendly group they will in order that they will have low costs to allow them to enhance their programs and promote extra, you recognize, the low merchandise promote extra or low costs promote extra merchandise. After which from there, they’re ready to make use of that scale to drive down costs additional. And that could be a flywheel in that it, you recognize, principally, the decrease the costs they’ve, the extra gross sales they make, the extra scale they will get, and the additional they will decrease costs.
However that’s like on the highest stage. And what I actually needed to do is give creators particularly examples of flywheels at, you recognize, probably the most micro-detailed stage. And my favourite instance of that is for content material creators who’re making a e-newsletter. It could possibly be something, however particularly a e-newsletter on a weekly foundation. And that’s one thing like, effectively, I suppose the problem that you’ve with it’s sending an e-mail each Monday morning, each Tuesday, every time it’s, and realizing like that always the extra you write, you’re working via your entire concepts for content material and also you’re operating out of issues. And after I educate this workshop in particular person, I at all times ask like, okay, you recognize, present of palms. Who struggles, you recognize, the day earlier than, two days earlier than the information which might be presupposed to exit with truly having an thought and writing it on time. And often half the room not less than raises their hand. And so it’s like, okay, what when you might have a flywheel that the extra subscribers you bought, the extra concepts you needed to write and offer you a gradual, you recognize, an countless stream of content material concepts. And everybody’s like, that sounds wonderful.
And so the way in which that this works is when somebody subscribes to your listing, then you definately ship them a sequence of automated emails. What I love to do is I ship out form of my best hits. You recognize, these are, one’s going to be my story. After which the following two is likely to be a few of my greatest essays that I’ve ever written. Sort of the factor that like all the remainder of my work stands on. In an effort to perceive my writing, you must learn these essays. After which e-mail 4, e-mail 5, someplace in there I ship a extremely easy, like form of plain textual content e-mail. And what I do with that’s I simply say, hey, thanks a lot for subscribing. I hope you’ve been having fun with the content material. One fast query: What’s your largest frustration with after which fill within the clean. You recognize, studying, in my case, I used to be educating easy methods to design iPhone apps. So I stated, what’s your largest frustration with studying easy methods to design iPhone apps? You would say, hey, what’s your largest frustration or largest battle with elevating children proper now, with meal prep, with any of these items? You simply say, hit reply and let me know. And what occurs is then you definately get to categorize all these replies that they arrive in. It is likely to be so simple as a label in Gmail so that each reply to that e-mail goes into one spot. You’ll be able to learn them abruptly. Or you could possibly be utilizing Zapier to an Airtable, one thing extra subtle. However it may possibly begin in a easy approach.
After which from there, what we do is each time I am going to write down an e-mail, I’m not sitting down at my pc from scratch and saying, oh man, what ought to I write about this week? I’m going via my categorized responses and saying, oh, Amy had this battle. I believe I can reply that. You recognize, or Joe had this one. Let me write a solution or an essay only for that particular person after which make it extra basic. After which to shut the loop within the flywheel, you recognize, that e-newsletter goes out and we’re going to market it, you recognize, each to the e-mail listing after which additionally on social. That’s going to lead to extra subscribers. So if we undergo the listing or if we undergo the flywheel, now we have new subscribers coming in. That turns into welcome, or that turns into frustrations being shared again with us. After which from there, it’s going to categorizing the responses as much as writing content material to feed the responses, which then will get us extra subscribers. And so this actually turns into, you recognize, a flywheel the place it’s a round movement that closes the loop. And the extra effort or like, principally, the extra outcomes we get, the extra outcomes we get, which is fairly implausible. And we will get into the legal guidelines of flywheels and all that, however that’s a quite simple instance that everybody ought to implement.
Katie: And the factor I like about that instance particularly is since you’re asking their largest frustration, you’re giving them an area to share that. They usually’re going to, such as you stated, let you know their apparent ache level. But additionally if you reply, you’re getting to write down as when you had been talking to a singular particular person, which I do know through the years actually modifications the tone and the way you’re in a position to join with folks, even when that message goes to many individuals. And I skilled this with Wellness Mama, particularly early on. I’d learn each single touch upon weblog posts. And I knew these first a number of hundred commenters, not less than by identify. And it was like there was a relationship constructing.
And a time period typically utilized in entrepreneurship is the concept of getting an avatar, which is form of the particular person you’re writing or talking or serving to and having a transparent understanding of who that particular person is, even when it’s an avatar you create in your head that represents your viewers. I discovered that was extraordinarily useful as a result of I wasn’t attempting to write down to your complete web. I used to be attempting to write down to those individuals who I felt like I knew at a visceral stage, to the mother of three children with tight funds, who was perhaps had a child with a well being subject and she or he was attempting to assist her entire household get more healthy. It allowed me to talk to her in a way more private approach than if I used to be simply attempting to write down broadly to your complete web. And so I’m curious you probably have any examples of the avatar perspective in enterprise. I do know you’re concerned with many and the way that may be useful as effectively.
Nathan: Properly, yeah, I believe the one largest factor you are able to do or the one most essential writing tip is to write down to a person. And like, I bear in mind one of many books that I wrote was about designing net functions. And I wrote it very particularly to my brother-in-law who was early in his design profession and was seeking to pursue that. And anytime that I’d get caught and I’m attempting to write down the intro and I’m attempting to determine any of this, I’d simply truly write Philip, comma, enter, enter, after which write it to him as if I’d simply discuss to him. And that’s a lot simpler as a result of we, we as writers, tip into this bizarre format the place we impulsively go, oh, I, I understand how to write down an e-mail to Katie, however that is to a thousand folks, or that is to 100 thousand folks. How might I probably write to them? And it’s like, truly you do it the identical approach. And so what I like about that is it places that precisely as you’re saying, it places that, that particular person and their issues and the phrases that they use entrance and heart.
That’s one other factor on this. Like we talked later concerning the byproducts of flywheels, however one byproduct of this flywheel is that you simply get to see the language always that folks use to explain their frustrations and their struggles. And if you need to use that and have like, oh, let’s say 10 folks describe the frustrations with meal prep. You’ll be able to see the phrases and the eventualities they use. And when you had been to return out with a guide or a course or content material on that matter, then you could possibly have that labeled away and you could possibly see, okay, what am I going to title this? Properly, what’s my weblog put up topic line going to be? Properly, have a look at how they you recognize, how your viewers truly describes their very own struggles. And that gives you a lot materials to craft your language, whether or not it’s, you recognize, only for consideration or driving for gross sales.
Katie: And I believe even for somebody who’s very early stage or perhaps even wanting to start out a enterprise, that, that idea is so essential as you’re considering of what sort of enterprise you’re going to create. And as you’re considering of long-term, what a flywheel was going to seem like, you may heart on that. Who’s your avatar and what drawback are you fixing for that particular particular person? And that lets you actually refine your message. And I firmly consider that every one of us have data or experience or knowledge in a specific space and that that may profit many different folks. So even for these considering perhaps like, I don’t know what enterprise I’d even begin. I really feel like when you can reframe that query into who might I assist with this information that I’ve that perhaps another person doesn’t, that’s a terrific place to begin.
I’m additionally curious when you’ve ever utilized the idea of flywheels in day-to-day private life and never simply enterprise. As a result of one factor I’ve observed through the years is that always enterprise ideas can apply in how we handle our time and our residence life as effectively. And I’ve talked about this some, however I spotted years in the past, I used to be actually careworn in my life. However the stress wasn’t coming from enterprise. And it received to the purpose the place I even nearly thought-about stopping Wellness Mama as a result of I spotted I couldn’t handle all these items and I wasn’t going to let my household be the factor that fell via the cracks. And what I spotted as a substitute was that really, if I began operating my residence life, like I ran a enterprise, not less than with the extent of group and having key outcomes and targets I used to be working towards and getting the entire household on board towards that frequent mission, it truly simplified the stress of residence life, not as a result of I used to be essentially doing much less. However as a result of I had constructed construction that decreased my psychological stress round it. So I do know that’s most likely a query you haven’t gotten earlier than, however I’m curious when you’ve seen this flywheel idea apply in different areas of life as effectively.
Nathan: Yeah, I haven’t spent as a lot time on this, however what instantly involves thoughts is well being and health. And so if we go to the three legal guidelines of flywheels, as I’ve outlined them, first is that every step goes easily from one into the following, proper? So that’s we’re having a round movement as a substitute of a linear set of duties. The second is that it will get simpler with every rotation. And the third is that you simply produce extra with every rotation.
And so what I take into consideration is my very own well being and health journey, the place if you’re attempting to make progress, it’s actually onerous at first. Each little behavior that you simply’re attempting to tweak is, you recognize, you’re attempting to chop out the final meal of the day, you recognize, and I don’t imply dinner. I imply, the meal that I eat at like 9 pm earlier than I begin to wind down for mattress, you recognize, such as you’re attempting to alter all of these items. However at first, it’s actually, actually onerous. And also you begin with these small tweaks. However then issues get simpler over time as you stack these habits on prime of one another. And you actually make these tweaks that give you the results you want. And also you say like, okay, like one factor that labored very well for me was eliminating breakfast. I used to be ready, you recognize, by doing intermittent fasting, I used to be in a position to, with out a lot effort, like scale back my calorie consumption. And so that you make these tweaks and the rotation of the flywheel is definitely each day, you recognize, perhaps on a weekly foundation as you might have, you recognize, your train habits. However, you recognize, I discover myself early on dreading the gymnasium, dreading, you recognize, consuming effectively and issues like that. After which over time, you’re like, oh, truly, I’m excited for this. I’m excited to, you recognize, like to attend one other day. I’m like, I want that I might do these two exercises again to again, however I do know I even have to attend two days, you recognize, to offer my physique time to relaxation earlier than I do this different one. And so I believe it applies to those self same ideas. And you could possibly completely do it in all areas of your life. Now I’m like, okay, how am I going to use this to homeschooling? Since you completely might.
Katie: Yeah, I do know homeschooling is one other commonality that you simply and I share. And we talked about that in our first episode, which I’ll ensure is linked. However I like that. I believe you’re proper. Well being and wellness habits can have that flywheel impact and in addition make use of compounding, which is one other enterprise precept that’s very beneficial is like something that’s going to extend the advantages of the trouble over time can also be actually useful. And so whether or not that’s lifting weights, whether or not that’s creating habits round your consuming window, whether or not it’s higher sleep habits, all of these issues can help you persistently iterate and enhance extra. So I like that you simply utilized it there. And when you consider any concepts for homeschooling and making use of it, I’d like to have a follow-up dialog about that.
Nathan: Sounds good. We’ll must textual content about that as we share some suggestions.
Katie: Completely. And also you additionally talked about earlier concerning the byproducts of flywheels. And I’d like to delve into that a bit of bit and listen to from you what you see each in a enterprise perspective and simply on the whole as byproducts of flywheels.
Nathan: Yeah. So I’m an avid woodworker. I’ve received a store in my storage and I’m at all times making stuff. And one factor that, you recognize, there’s issues I intentionally make, you recognize, reducing boards. My son and I, he’s 9 and we simply constructed a, he has this little cubby in his room that had a door on it. You recognize, it’s like the place the roof line comes down and it’s this awkward area. And we simply constructed a hidden, like a bookcase that opens up because the hidden door in all of this. And so there’s cool issues that we make, however one of many byproducts that comes out of that’s sawdust, proper? We make a variety of sawdust and we throw it away. And that’s on a small scale. In order that’s high quality. However when you have a look at sawmills, they’ve this attention-grabbing factor of like they’re taking timber and turning it into lumber that all of us use for initiatives and homes and the whole lot. They usually’re producing enormous quantities of sawdust. And that’s only a byproduct. And it’s truly fairly irritating for them as a result of they’re like, you gotta get rid of it. In the event you don’t get rid of it, it’ll catch on fireplace. Prefer it’s not good to breathe. Like it’s not a superb byproduct. However what Samuels discovered, you recognize, effectively, I don’t know, 50 years in the past or extra, is that when you take all of this obnoxious sawdust and also you combine it with glue and compress it down, you can also make one thing referred to as medium-density fiberboard, which is definitely what just about all cupboards are constructed out of as of late. It’s what we constructed that bookshelf, you recognize, that swings open for the hidden little hidden room in my son’s room. It’s all out of what was a waste product that was a pure byproduct of the whole lot else.
And so I actually like to take a look at the byproducts of flywheels. As a result of there’s at all times one thing there, proper? Like one byproduct, you recognize, we talked about in our content material creation flywheel is the language and the copy that we must always use in our gross sales pages and our topic traces and all of that. One other instance is at ConvertKit, we love to inform tales. Our entire factor is that we would like creators to be the heroes of our model. And so we wish to inform their tales. And we’ve received an entire technique of how we determine creators, interview them, do a written story about how, a bunch of them we do a written story on. We additionally go and make a movie about. After which we ask them, who ought to we attain as one other creator? Whose story ought to we inform? They at all times give us concepts. And that closes the loop, proper? We are able to now full it once more with one other creator.
However what we realized is there have been byproducts in all places on this flywheel. Not solely did it give us, you recognize, one to 2 nice tales to inform each month. However we’d ship photographers for every story. After which that gave us this library of all of those nice images of creators of their residence places of work, studios, you recognize, dwelling their life. And we ask these creators, hey, are you okay with releasing a few of these that everyone might use of their content material. And a bunch of them stated, sure, completely. These images you may launch. And so now we have a library on Unsplash that has 40 million views of our images. So many creators write to us and say like, hey, thanks a lot for making these images out there to be used in my weblog posts. You recognize, I simply put out this e-book that makes use of one among these images. And that’d be a bizarre venture if we got down to say, hey, let’s go and you recognize, rent photographers, ship them all around the nation, you recognize, for these creators to make a photograph library, like that will be odd. However we ended up, you recognize, the byproduct became one thing wonderful.
One other instance is Issa, who’s our storyteller. She creates, you recognize, she does these written tales. And we thought, what if we might make a podcast? However a podcast is an entire bunch of labor. You recognize. And so we had been fascinated with, will we truly wish to do this? And Issa realized that she might go and batch document a bunch of those tales. She might simply learn the essay that she wrote and document that as a podcast. And in order that’s one other byproduct as a result of folks say, hey, I’d moderately, you recognize, you learn it to me whereas I do the dishes as a substitute of me having to learn it myself and give attention to it.
After which the ultimate byproduct, effectively, truly there’s like 5 extra. However one of many issues is that, if you concentrate on flywheels, they function subsequent to one another. Mainly, now we have this storytelling flywheel that each month places out a narrative a few creator. It’s actually high-quality and we’re actually pleased with it. Properly, each two years, we take that assortment of tales that stacked up and we run one other course of to show all of that into a stupendous espresso desk guide that we will get within the palms of creators. I’ve all these tales of individuals saying like, hey, I turned a creator as a result of I used to be over at my cousin’s home and I picked up this I Am A Creator guide on a espresso desk and I began studying it and I received sucked in, you recognize, about this wonderful story, you recognize, this lawyer turned meals blogger. And now I’m hooked on all this and like I ended up turning into a creator due to it. And that’s truly only a byproduct of our storytelling flywheel. It’s not, hey, let’s set out and go, you recognize, do that enormous endeavor of writing a guide. So there’s all types of magic that comes if you run these flywheels and, you recognize, maintain them operating and bettering them for a number of years.
Katie: I like these examples. And I’ll say I’m the beneficiary of your woodworking passion as a result of I nonetheless have the reducing board that you simply made me years in the past in my kitchen. And one other factor that traces up with that’s I truly am constructing out an in-person wellness area within the space the place I reside that can have all of the wellness modalities. However a part of constructing that, I needed to supply issues domestically from small companies as a lot as attainable. So final week, I received to go to for the primary time a sawmill the place I reside and to see that course of firsthand. And it was so fascinating. So I like that you simply used that for example. And I do know there’s 1,000,000 extra methods we might go along with this dialog.
However for anyone who’s within the idea, I do know you’ve written about this as effectively and talked about it on different podcasts. And I’ll hyperlink to these to allow them to continue learning extra. However for somebody who’s new to the sport and perhaps is eager to make that bounce into being a creator, seems like your books are a terrific useful resource for that as effectively. However do you might have any suggestions for considering large image a few flywheel on the preliminary levels of enterprise so that you could hopefully develop a sustainable one over time from that very early part? As a result of I do know I missed that window and needed to put it in place in a while. So any suggestions for newcomers?
Nathan: Yeah, I believe the very first thing is to know {that a} flywheel shouldn’t be that totally different. Usually a small tweak from a course of that you simply may already be doing. So for instance, a variety of us sit all the way down to work and we do what I name a scattered course of. And that’s the place we’re leaping round and dealing on no matter appeared most attention-grabbing in that second. Or no matter e-mail we received or textual content message that stated, hey, you set to work on this. Or we had been scrolling Instagram and we’re like, oh, that’s a terrific reel. I suppose I ought to make reels right now. You recognize, you’re leaping round to all of this. In order that’s the beginner model.
I’d say the extra subtle, perhaps skilled model is if you even have processes and customary working procedures and also you say, okay, right here’s the schedule that I put out content material. Right here, each time I publish a weblog put up, listed below are the guidelines that I am going via, proper? Right here’s my course of for my topic traces. And that’s actually, you recognize, way more efficient. That’s then taking that linear, you recognize, customary working process and switch it like closing the loop, turning it right into a flywheel. And determining how do I do it in order that the extra I do that factor, the extra outcomes it provides me?
And so I’d say the newbie model is begin to outline what are the actions that you simply’re going to do. Let me again up. I’d say the newbie model is to consider your aim. Let’s say our aim on this case is to construct a e-newsletter to 1000 subscribers. So now, as a substitute of leaping at it from a scattered perspective of wherever you are feeling motivated on a given day, take into consideration what actions do I must do each week? I want to write down. I want to advertise a e-newsletter. I must package deal it up. I want methods to get subscribers. I want to satisfy different creators and really listing these out after which attempt to see what processes might I doc round that? How do I? I used to be going to say, how do I be as robotic as attainable? However sure, that’s truly what I imply. How do I outline the constraints in order that I could be as inventive inside these constraints as attainable? And when you do this, then you definately’ll begin to see the place the flywheels can develop. So actually give attention to linear processes first, particularly as a newbie. After which as you get these established, search for how might I shut the loop? How might I make it in order that extra of this factor continues to snowball and get me much more outcomes?
Katie: I find it irresistible. And we didn’t even get to delve into the world of ConvertKit right now, however I’ll say for anyone listening, when you’ve ever gotten an e-mail from me, it was via your software program ConvertKit that you simply based. So I’ll guarantee that’s linked as effectively when you guys wish to use it as a instrument in your individual companies, it’s been actually useful for me and in keeping with the whole lot we’ve talked about, if you wish to see an instance of that e-newsletter, you may join that at wellnessmama.com. And I do know you guys have one as effectively. I’ll ensure these are each linked, however Nathan, thanks a lot for the time. It’s at all times such a enjoyable dialog with you. And I like that we received to really go into the enterprise and flywheel aspect right now. This has been actually enjoyable. And I hope everybody has discovered as a lot as I’ve.
Nathan: Yeah, thanks a lot for having me.
Katie: And thanks for listening. And I hope that you’ll be part of me once more on the following episode of The Wellness Mama Podcast.
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